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View Full Version : Weapon support gear for the prepared citizen.



Hawkeye
04-13-2011, 09:11 AM
Looking for some serious thought/input here. My friend and I have started our own business, and will be coming out with our own line gear. There are many GREAT gear companies out there right now, but, most all of their gear is designed with focus on primarily the military and law enforcement communities, and of course the competition community. Our gear, is going to be primarily designed and focused towards the preparedness minded citizen.
As prepared citizens, our situation will in and of itself dictate that we have to function in a different manner than what LE and Military do, thus its only logical that our support gear for our weapons will have to be tailored a bit different as well. We will most likely have to work as small teams of friends and family at best, unlike the much larger numbers of the LE/Mil side. We also wont have the same logistical supply and support chain that they do. To protect our homes and such, in a truly worst case scenario, we will have to function much like a guerilla fighter, in a unconventional manner. Be it against bands of looters, gang bangers, rioters, ....or worse, for the most part we wont want to be engaging in actual shooting, unless we absolutely have to. We will have to mind our ammo, as we obviously wont have the ability to just hop online and order more, or call in for a resupply, etc. Calling in backup most likely wont be an option. Our gear is going to have to be as good a quality as it possibly can be, as it will have to last an indefinite amount of time, under harsh conditions. The ability to clean it and maintain it, probably wont be an option like it is now, and it will be getting used probably daily, vs. just on the occasion we are training with it now. If our gear goes down in bad times, there wont be any hopping on the internet and ordering a new one. I say all that just to give you some perspective of where we are coming from, as well as some food for thought. We must look at each area of our preparedness, with as much seriousness as we can afford to. Just as you wouldnt want to store your food in cheap low grade plastic buckets that will crack and dry rot, you dont want cheap gear thats going to fall apart on you or be so uncomfortable that you cant even use it.

That all said, I'm looking for a little input on what you like, dont like, etc., in regards to carrying support gear for your weapon.... i.e.- mags and such. Right now, we have a couple of rigs that we'll be bringing out, that we've been using for a couple of years. We are trying to take that to a better level though, and are working on some new stuff. For the time being, we are mainly focused on the AR and AK platforms, as those are the most prevelant. Other platforms may be an option in the future depending on demand and interest.

One question I'll ask specifically, is, what do you prefer in the way of magazine retention? Something simple like bungee corded pull tabs? Full flaps over the mag/pouch? There are reasons that we can think of for both, but I'm not sure how many folks have ever really thought about it and how it applies to the prepared citizen.

Spock
04-13-2011, 10:34 AM
These are all very good questions and points you bring up. for instance on my gear there is no radio pouch. i either "roll" alone or with 4-5 other people within shouting distance. Like you said a "small" group.

on mag pouchs i run an AK as you are aware. I use flapped pouchs. currently they are blackhawks coupled ar15 mag pouch which will fit 2 un coupled AK mags. I have two issues with them. 1. the 2 mags go in the pouch side by side with mo material between them. some times one mag snags on the other and trys to pull the second mag out with the 1st one. 2. i can't detatch the flap. there are certian, muddy situations that I want the flap there to keep crap off my mag and other times when i want more speed accessing the mag. There aren't alot of good AK mag pouchs out there. everything seems to be an enlarged m4 pouch. I have a spec ops or spector mag pouch thats a "universal" it holds 2 ak mags or 2 m14 mags or 3 m4 mags but it really doesn't hold AK mags all that great. HSGIs Tacos look great but they leave the mag expoused to the elements.

the rig I use is a bit..... unusual. Its a woodland USGI Combat Medic Vest with the pistol belt attached.

I personally LOVE the thing. the only thing I'd change on it is fewer adjustment straps/buckles and the back panel to have PALS webbing other than that I don't think I'd trade it. the belt helps put some of the load on the hips the shoulders have wide comfortable padding. even integrating hydration into it wasn't too hard. oh and I'd love the change the color to marpat or multicam.

this is it except I have all different pouchs on it:

http://www.specwargear.com/images/vest-molle%20medic-2.jpg

another piece of gear for me I'd like is a holster that attachs to the alice pistol belt but that is of a better design than the m12. the m12 works fine for my cz75 but for the xd9 tends to snag in it and the retention system is from 1912.

Matt In Oklahoma
04-13-2011, 11:21 AM
How about a EDC bag-backpack thats made for guns and magazines, water etc that doesn't look like it. So it's not made in OD green, black or sand with molle loops and skull patches etc. I'm not a fan of the single strap murse that men are carrying because they stick out screaming "tactical" and "I have a gun". The bags that are out there claim to be covert but are anything but.

Hawkeye
04-13-2011, 11:31 AM
How about a EDC bag-backpack thats made for guns and magazines, water etc that doesn't look like it. So it's not made in OD green, black or sand with molle loops and skull patches etc. I'm not a fan of the single strap murse that men are carrying because they stick out screaming "tactical" and "I have a gun". The bags that are out there claim to be covert but are anything but.

Probably a topic for another thread...but just to play devils advocate for a sec ;) .... screams tactical, to....who? You and I? or the other 90% of the population/sheep herd...?

Matt In Oklahoma
04-13-2011, 12:00 PM
Probably a topic for another thread...but just to play devils advocate for a sec ;) .... screams tactical, to....who? You and I? or the other 90% of the population/sheep herd...?
I thought it was me/you but then while I was at lunch with a sheeple the other day a guy walked by with a od green murse and the sheeple looks at me and says hey isnt that one of them gun bags? I thought they couldnt carry in here. sheeple aint even got a gun of his own so I made a mental note of it. Sorry don't want to pull away from your stuff, thought it went along with it. Looking for a good gun gear backpack that doesnt stand out as a "citizen". I like to be out and about in places like lets say the grand canyon, church events, shopping mall and not look like a mercenary contractor but still have the tools needed.

Hawkeye
04-13-2011, 12:20 PM
Understood. That may be something to add to the list down the road. As to the rest, we'll do a different thread discussing those issues/concerns. :)

protus
04-13-2011, 12:30 PM
well scenerio always dictates what load out you have.
I loved the amount of junk i could carry on my old LBV, but it sucked to wear the thing for long periods of time.I like my HSGI warlord, but again...its to much at times.
I like my modular TT vest. Best of both worlds, but the shoulders need at least some padding.

IMHo for what most of us would be doing, would be a small low pro rig with the basics and a belt set up. Of course the abilty to rock 6 mags and full kit is a plus. But it is like trying to build the perfect do all race car, one that does a fast 1/4 mile, but can hang with the F1 crowd, while still do rally runs, and not burn through gas and tires like a NASCAR would.. you'll end up with a vega :P


so....

a low pro with 1.5 mil webbing for shoulder straps with some closed cell on teh shoulder points. webbing for hydrotubes /comm wire.
Qd's at the sides and top of the strap points.
two piece front. velcro admin behind each side.
kinda like a mav.
Hydro is a plus but dont see how to keep it low pro unless you make a slim line carrier that will use malic to back of the shoulder straps ( x them or make it an H harness like the OSOE one)
this way, the kit could be worn with a backpack or under clothing if need be.


me i like flaps. removable is a plus. But the issue with most is that with an AK unless its a long enough flap with a deep enough pouch they'll slide over and expose teh mags. My HSGI ummps do that,due to the pouch sidewalls being to short.

just randm thoughts as i eat LOL....

610Alpha
04-13-2011, 04:14 PM
Glad to hear this...hope this business venture works out.

I only have experience with the Army LBE. The mag pouches seemed to stiff and difficult to get the cover over the top of the mags (30 rd).

If for extended use you want durable even when regular care is almost non-existent.

Good dense padding like Protus said.

Make the system easy to customize, it will be hard to make a one style suits everyone but letting the user add pouches as they see fit will be easier for you. Too many varying body sizes and shapes to accomodate. Basic adjustments and then make it easy for the wearer to place the various pouches where they like them, seems obvious I know but I see a lot of vests/LBE stuff that isn't that modular or only modular in certain parts.

Look at the major brands out there and don't do the things that drive you nuts about their stuff.

Flaps are nice, might be best to build your mag pouches from the ground up. Might take a couple tries but if there aren't any AK pouches out there sounds like you will have an in to the marketplace on that front. I might focus on getting that up and going since it sounds like there aren't any mag pouches for AK out there that do a good job.

Might help to see some pics or vid of what you have...maybe protus will make the adjustable slings for you :) I think it was one of his vids that i saw about this.

my two copper pieces: Grow slowly! & Partnerships are the only ships that don't sail (very rarely do they work out the way you want them to).

Mikeg175
04-13-2011, 05:15 PM
Would definitely like to some kind 'camalbak' option on anything , you need to stay hydrated , also like the camalbaks , they have different size packs , so vest with a small type back on the back . Also maybe angle the mag holders some , most have them coming straight up and a slight angle can help get them out faster . Also a few smaller pouches for tools , like a leatherman or SOG tool . Also they should made to adjust in size , if your using in middle of summer , you can size it smaller , then as you need to add layers it can be adjusted bigger . You could also make the mag holders have elastic sides , so can expand a little for different type mags .
If you are making this for the prepared type person and not LEO/Military types or want it to blend some , I would suggest having some velcro attachments and sell them with some reflective patches , so if your wearing it and its not a tactical situation , it just looks like a super duper hiking setup . It should also contain a sleeve ( waterproof ? ) for a cellphone and maybe a clear sleeve for a gps . Maybe a detachable map pouch also .

Rmplstlskn
04-13-2011, 05:35 PM
My thoughts on a "Survival Citizen" accoutrement...

Here is what I use now:
http://www.wwyd.org/images/AR15/LBE_RMPL (1) (Medium).JPG

http://www.wwyd.org/images/AR15/LBE_RMPL (4) (Medium).JPG

Tactical Tailor MAV with X-Harness and other TT pouches... Use is geared for "ARMED SURVIVAL" with a carbine, but it is also used for local shooting events with local Black Rifle club, which tends to be more like SWAT/Operator, fast & furious, rather than a long-term, slow and cautious, self-supporting role more inline with a survivalist. This is why the FAK (First Aid Kit) is so large and well-stocked, why a pair of binoculars ride in a pouch, a pistol rides on the MAV rather than a belt or drop holster, and other pouches have so much "survival" items in them... As compared to the "fast & furious" which tends to be ammo & armor heavy with smaller BOK (Blow Out Kits), no water, and less survival stuff... Also, the X-Harness shoulder straps are really comfy and a great design, except for the back (see commenst later). They really spread out the load...

As for mag pouches, I like the open ones like the TT ones I use. A simple bungee to strap them in if needed but are out of the way when they are not. They wrap around the mag body nicely, not leaving much room for dirt/debris to get in the pouch. Since most modern mags are fairly well closed (PMAG, etc...) and they go in the TT pouch lip side down, with good tension, I don't need a flap to keep them clean or in place. I'd rather have faster access than protection.

The only bummer is I wish I could keep the PMAG covers in place (removes feed lip stress during storage) in the TT pouch, but I have to fight it out with the cover in place. Sometimes the cover pops off as I am fighting it out and remains in the pouch, making an obstacle for the next use of that pouch until I take the time to fish it out...

I would also like the MAV to have more back carry option, or the ability to latch on a backpack, as well as it strapping in a "shooting belt" like the old ALICE gear does so that the chest rig & shoulder straps bear most of the belt weight...

I'd also be interested in how you plan on sewing this gear you plan on making. I have been dabbling with "tactical sewing" and have come to the conclusion that a good, industrial "walking foot" is a BARE MINIMUM for any tactical sewing that uses webbing. My old cast-iron Singer 66 beast just can't handle the thick #69 or thicker thread, nor the tensions needed.

Rmpl

Hidden Agenda
04-13-2011, 06:41 PM
Best of luck on your endeavors. I truly wish you all the success you can manage!

Here's a couple of quick thoughts/suggestions. In the PAW, I imagine that most of us will be spending a lot more time working outside on our "retreat/homesteads" than we currently do, and will likely want/need more than just our sidearms quickly accessible/on us while we plant,weed, harvest, feed and care for critters, repair fence-lines, check traps/snares/tripwires, etc... yet full battle-rattle doesn't seem very realistic on a daily basis (although it may be necessary at times). Heat and humidity is also a factor for us here in FL, as well as elsewhere.

Like many others, I prefer to load/wear my gear in layers, (1st line, 2nd line, etc...). So how about something that is in between (kind of 1.5 line)?;
It' be great if it was light weight yet rugged, hydration compatible and included;
blow out kit
knife
sidearm/mags
rifle mag (maybe two?)
multi-tool pouch

Just a thought.

protus
04-14-2011, 06:17 AM
problem is weight bulk.

Ok,. your working those raised beds...your wearing 4 mags, 2 pistol mags and knife, BOK. still lots of bulk weight for a 1% occurance.
Now a belt kit with thin suspenders would work, if it held your sidearm, one reload for it, and one rifle mag,knife and small BOK ( CAT,izzy,shears)..again your rifle will need to be in arms reach.
But honestly, it'd be better to carry your sidearm and have a small mag bag for your rifle...lay rifle and mag bag few feet from where your working.

i guess the easiest thing to do would be go put on your kit and dig a hole..LOL see how it feels after a few hours.. make sure your on your knees alot..aka gardening.
lay out a small obsticle course in your back yard. nothing like a real one but with real jobs..1st could be the "pull weeds". this is where your on your hands and knees and have to remove golf tee's from an area. From there would be the choping block. no axe? or wood? get a baseball bat or sledge hammer and pretend....then do the oil change ;p try and lay under your truck and do a repair..

I know im being smart,,but you'll find where your stuff binds up,snags or carries funny for those day to day events..

Diz
04-14-2011, 07:57 AM
Hey Guys:

Thanks for all the input. Lots of good ideas and thoughts here. John and I are not trying to re-invent the wheel here, or just copy someone else and put our label on it to make a buck. What we are attemping to do is take a hard look at our weapons, equipment, and training, with a focus on what we, as armed civilians might face, and plan accordingly. In regards to our chest rigs, the main point is how we will likely employ it? As we go about our daily lives what makes the most sense in terms of access to our rifle gear? Working around the house and garden? Going on local trips or errands? Working away from home? Pulling security patrols? Each of these functions may have different answers. We see the chest rig as a deliberate carry method, either for elevated threat levels/ possible enemy contact in static mode, or for longer range, more dynamic patrolling. It is one tool in the tool kit, along with a modern-day "possibles" bag, and the war belt. While we feel that it is the most versatile, so we are starting with it, if there is a need for another bag or belt, we will take a look at them later as well.

The other driving force behind these rigs, is our recent conversion to AKs. While we are making both AR and AK versions, we feel that there is much ground left unplowed in the developement of a good AK rig. WE have spent the last few months working on all sorts of designs, trying to combine the important features of com-bloc rigs with better materials and hardware from western designs. We have found that a good AK rig must be designed from the ground up as an AK specific rig. You can't just scale up an AR rig or even have a good "universal" rig for both. The AK mag is very unique and demands a certain mag pouch to really hold it securely, yet allow reasonably fast access to it. SO we are working on both an open-top, and a top flap design with these things in mind.

Cimarron
04-15-2011, 06:17 AM
Hey Guys:

Thanks for all the input. Lots of good ideas and thoughts here. John and I are not trying to re-invent the wheel here, or just copy someone else and put our label on it to make a buck. What we are attemping to do is take a hard look at our weapons, equipment, and training, with a focus on what we, as armed civilians might face, and plan accordingly. In regards to our chest rigs, the main point is how we will likely employ it? As we go about our daily lives what makes the most sense in terms of access to our rifle gear? Working around the house and garden? Going on local trips or errands? Working away from home? Pulling security patrols? Each of these functions may have different answers. We see the chest rig as a deliberate carry method, either for elevated threat levels/ possible enemy contact in static mode, or for longer range, more dynamic patrolling. It is one tool in the tool kit, along with a modern-day "possibles" bag, and the war belt. While we feel that it is the most versatile, so we are starting with it, if there is a need for another bag or belt, we will take a look at them later as well.

The other driving force behind these rigs, is our recent conversion to AKs. While we are making both AR and AK versions, we feel that there is much ground left unplowed in the developement of a good AK rig. WE have spent the last few months working on all sorts of designs, trying to combine the important features of com-bloc rigs with better materials and hardware from western designs. We have found that a good AK rig must be designed from the ground up as an AK specific rig. You can't just scale up an AR rig or even have a good "universal" rig for both. The AK mag is very unique and demands a certain mag pouch to really hold it securely, yet allow reasonably fast access to it. SO we are working on both an open-top, and a top flap design with these things in mind.

I look at this from the non-military/leo experience stand point (which is reasonable because I am ).

So I think of simplicity- is it no non-sense gear that any 'dummy' could figure out? For example, I found a good deal on a tactical chest piece that I still don't know what half of it is for. (yeah, I just referred to myself as a dummy ;) )

When you market it, will you be able to describe to the "sheep" or those newly awakened that want gear, the subtle differences of your gear compared to, let's say, a Special Forces unit? How would your product be better?

Just a couple questions from the ill-informed of your marketing base.

610Alpha
04-15-2011, 08:45 AM
I was thinking about the title of this thread and I would suggest non-camo and stay away from all black, those scream tactical. I guess I am thinking along the lines of fishing vests that can be worn and no one really pays attention, put a couple lures on a vest but have your pockets and pouches stuffed with what you need. hope that helps.

Rmplstlskn
04-15-2011, 05:26 PM
As for ultra-lightweight, here is a little CHEAP sewing experiment I did for just some simple range work...
http://www.wwyd.org/images/AR15/belt-rig (Small).jpg

TT Riggers Belt with some modified Canadian military suspenders that loop onto the riggers belt. A simple Kydex holster and a modified USGI 3-mag ammo pouch (until something better comes along). My pistol mag pouches snap on. Very light, simple and the suspenders carry the weight so I can have the belt looser for bending & such...

Rmpl

barfife
04-15-2011, 08:21 PM
Understood. That may be something to add to the list down the road. As to the rest, we'll do a different thread discussing those issues/concerns. :)
Personally I would also like to see attachable mag holders for different weapon mags. I have 32 rd glock mags for the Kel tec sub 2000 and other times 223 20 rd mags for the AR .

Grand58742
04-16-2011, 04:59 AM
One question I'll ask specifically, is, what do you prefer in the way of magazine retention? Something simple like bungee corded pull tabs? Full flaps over the mag/pouch? There are reasons that we can think of for both, but I'm not sure how many folks have ever really thought about it and how it applies to the prepared citizen.

I think both full flap designs and the bungee corded and the friction retention pouches all have their place. If I'm worried about doing a lot of running, hitting the ground, crawling through mud and sand, full flap might be the way to go. If I need them quick where I'll be doing a lot of shooting and rapid reloads, friction retention might be best. The bungee cord design is best at moving a lot with that additional peace of mind of having it retained better. You can still get at it quicker than a flap design, but have the additional security of keeping the mags in the pouches where they belong for the most part.

I think mag pouches are mission dictated. Having said that, I'd love to see something like a double mag pouch with both a flap and bungee retention. Flap can be stowed when not needed inside (like velcroed inside) and the bungees used instead. Best of both worlds in my opinion.

ETA: And while the old USGI 3 mag pouch is probably the best design ever invented...I'd look at limiting the pouches to single or double configuration. JMHO

Grand58742
04-16-2011, 05:28 AM
And you realize you just opened up a can of worms here lol I'm a first rate gear junkie (some would use a less than politically correct term in the place of "junkie") and have always thought "ya know, this and that would make this better."

In reference to having your gear around while doing odd jobs. I like the murse option the best. Easy to put on, take off and you can get at the conents rapidly. The problem with most of those are they aren't designed to be modular for the most part. Maxpedition makes good kit, but the lack of attachment points is a hinging factor. But I was thinking...

Something like a GP ordnance pouch (like this http://www.supplycaptain.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=147&ParentCat=66 ) however, instead of having the MOLLE attachments points on the outside, put three single mag pouches in its place. One pouch on the left or right side for a blow out kit and another small GP pouch on the other. Now you have space for mags, FAK, other smaller doo dads and plenty of interior space for additional "things." Mini survival kit in a shoulder mounted bag. Easy to put on, take off, stow, get at things when you need them the most and small enough not to weigh you down too much like a full sized BOB or even a day patrol pack might. Just the bare essentials. And it's marketable to military as a bug out kit (yes, the .mil uses that term as well) or a grab and go bag, cops as an active shooter bag and preppers as a post SHTF EDC kit.

Make it in 'yote brown and I'd pick one up for certain lol

Diz
04-18-2011, 09:16 AM
First of all, I want to re-emphasize that Hawkeye and I are totally comitted to making kit for the armed and/or prepared American; not military, not police, or gov't agencies that think they're both. Following the KISS principle has been on our minds throughout the entire process.

The ultimate AK rigs IMHO have been the combloc designs I've studied. Not much on the domestic side has really impressed me. For a pure assault rig, the chicom has no equal. It has one of the best mag pouches out there, is sturdy, inexpensive, and readily available. The main drawback is being a pure assault rig; you don't have provisions for carrying much else. But using this rig as a base, we have added some other features, such as PALS webbing on the sides for attaching what you want to carry, which makes a much more versatile rig.

The Russian rigs are very similar but have been updated with more modern materials, hardware, etc. They have also added additional pouches for bayonets, pop-flares, grenades, utilties, etc. While nice, I think these are a little overboard for us. The attempt at modernizing the chicom rig was was OK, and I guess it works for them, but they have now gone the same route as US military LBE. It too is over-wrought with a lot of stuff we don't need.

The domestic rigs have all the features we come to know and love. You have a choice of open-top and top flap, plenty of PALS webbing, velcro, different closure and tension systems, not to mention the latest materials and hardware. But most are just scaled-up AR rigs.

What we have tried to do is take the best from each. The hard part has been to do that and still keep it simple, rock solid, and at a good price point. While we would love to make an all-singing, all-dancing rig, with everything people have suggested, you end up making compromises in simplicity and cost. WE are trying to makes rigs with 80-90% of what you guys have suggested here for our first production run.

Hawkeye
04-18-2011, 09:24 AM
First of all, I want to re-emphasize that Hawkeye and I are totally comitted to making kit for the armed and/or prepared American; not military, not police, or gov't agencies that think they're both. Following the KISS principle has been on our minds throughout the entire process.

Cant stress that enough. Not saying that any of those entities couldnt use this stuff, thats just not who we have in mind in designing/making it.

Spock
04-18-2011, 06:21 PM
awesome. I'm looking forward to at the minimum buying some mag pouchs in MARPAT. also I should mentioned earlier I FREAKING LOVE THE BLACK HAWK STRIKE CLIPS. my black hawk pouches use them and they rock. if you haven't used them buy some and try em out.


First of all, I want to re-emphasize that Hawkeye and I are totally comitted to making kit for the armed and/or prepared American; not military, not police, or gov't agencies that think they're both. Following the KISS principle has been on our minds throughout the entire process.

The ultimate AK rigs IMHO have been the combloc designs I've studied. Not much on the domestic side has really impressed me. For a pure assault rig, the chicom has no equal. It has one of the best mag pouches out there, is sturdy, inexpensive, and readily available. The main drawback is being a pure assault rig; you don't have provisions for carrying much else. But using this rig as a base, we have added some other features, such as PALS webbing on the sides for attaching what you want to carry, which makes a much more versatile rig.

The Russian rigs are very similar but have been updated with more modern materials, hardware, etc. They have also added additional pouches for bayonets, pop-flares, grenades, utilties, etc. While nice, I think these are a little overboard for us. The attempt at modernizing the chicom rig was was OK, and I guess it works for them, but they have now gone the same route as US military LBE. It too is over-wrought with a lot of stuff we don't need.

The domestic rigs have all the features we come to know and love. You have a choice of open-top and top flap, plenty of PALS webbing, velcro, different closure and tension systems, not to mention the latest materials and hardware. But most are just scaled-up AR rigs.

What we have tried to do is take the best from each. The hard part has been to do that and still keep it simple, rock solid, and at a good price point. While we would love to make an all-singing, all-dancing rig, with everything people have suggested, you end up making compromises in simplicity and cost. WE are trying to makes rigs with 80-90% of what you guys have suggested here for our first production run.

Patriotic Sheepdog
05-11-2011, 10:37 PM
Okay, I'm coming to this thread a little late and I agree with much of what has been stated so far. For the most part I see (and I could be wrong) most scenarios won't have prolonged firefights. They will be quick and dirty. Not to say that there won't be patrols and such which may require more gear, but for around the homestead tending to the daily chores I think a smaller rig will be better. I like the 1st, 2nd and 3rd line set-up. Around the AO doing the chores one might wear a 1st line pistol belt with suspenders and a couple extra mags, and IFAK. Some may want to have a rig that would carry 2-3 rifle mags and H2O bladder. In other words, something simple but with the capabilities to be able to add to or subtract from depending on "mission". There are many rigs that are good for one thing but not another thing.

Being an AK guy, I have been really looking at the US Palm gear, specifically the Attack Rack. It carries 4 AK 30 rounders on the outside with 4 pistol mags, but has the capability for an additional 3-30 round mags inside a pocket. I feel it would be good to go for around the AO with just 2-4 mags on the outside which would give you 90-150 rounds (including one in rifle) to get to cover, but for a longer patrol you would be able to carry 8 mags (including the one in the rifle). Thats 240 rounds for a firefight. Sure, you have 3 of those mags in a zippered pocket, but you probably would have a little time to get to those if needed. This rig I feel could be made a bit more useful by adding a back that could hold or attach a bladder, and maybe removing two pistol mag holders from one side and having room for a drop bag or utility pouch or IFAK. Working around the AO, you could get away with just the Attack Rack modified to have water on your back, a IFAK on your side, two pistol mags, 3 rifle mags and you could carry your pistol in one of the other mag pouches. If the water bladder was thin enough than the 3rd line backpack could be worn over this set-up. On an extended patrol this would then give you all three lines and a total loadout (all three lines) would be pistol with space for at least 2-4 extra mags, rifle with 7-30 round mags,
FAK's, water bladder, canteen with cup, buttpack, utility pouch, drop pouch, plus whatever you carry in your ruck and in your pockets.

Here is the site for the Attack Rack http://uspalm.com/index.php?option=com_products&view=product&id=3

Of course, being able to add SAPI or such would be an added bonus.

If you get to wanting to do a first aid bag, e-mail me. I have some ideas for the same idea you guys are looking at but for a FA bag. This would be more than an IFAK, but not geared towards the USAF Pararescue dude.

Jerry D Young
05-12-2011, 12:04 AM
Just a few thoughts.



No Velcro



No mesh



No plastic zippers



ALICE “Silent Clasp” pouchclosures or “Fixed” female side release receiver on the pouch with webbing maleside release w/webbing tail keeper included



True quick detach and reattachrucks on the back of the vest over a hydration carrier as part of the vest,again with “Fixed” female side release attachment on the vest and webbingattached male w/webbing tail keeper workable with an improved buttpack



Webbing tail keepers on allwebbing requiring them



Pouches for Stainless steel waterbottle/cup in addition to current style canteens



Small pouches for tools, smallerknives, lights, in single, dual, triple, and quad versions



Kydex/polymer lined knife sheathto accept various sizes of knives that don’t come with good sheaths



Vest can be MOLLE or specificconfigurations sewn



Include a MOLLE belt with thevest with integrated attachment for MOLLE or sewn vest



Light padded components, notthick, stiff padding, especially the belt and shoulders



Radio pouches to fit non-militaryradios such as FRS/GMRS/Murs/Amateur radios



A gun bearer similar to Kifaru’s



Pistol holsters including a goodflap version, not so thick as most, if possible



At least one low profile versionsimilar to a Scottevest, with 2 to 4 single mag flat pouches inside. Somepockets outside for other things, but the internal pockets for any tacticalitems



An optional well designed droppouch, large for rifles/carbines or smaller for those with just a pistol



And since you are keying on ARand AK platforms, include magazine options for a 40-round mags as well asdrums, in addition to the regular 30s.





Thoughts for additional optionsonce in production and AR/AK problems worked out.



.308 mag pouches for various .308MBRs Singles and doubles



Mag pouches for M1 Carbine; varioussizes of Saiga 12 gauge box & drum mags; single, dual, quad pistolmagazines



Stripper clip pouches for SKS10-round, Garand 8-round, Springfield 5-round, AR 10-round, M1 Carbine 10-round,M-14 5-round



Single round pouches 10/12/20s for.30-’06, .308, .300 WM,



Single round pouches for 12 and20 gauge shotshells including 3” 5/6/10/12s

protus
05-12-2011, 06:22 AM
psDOG, once you move past 6 AK mags, it gets beffy fast. Even now, my HSGI warlord, gets front heavy,even with the hydro carrier on the back. It all gets heavy fast, and not comfy. That is a main reason why ive been milling over ideas of going to a 4 cell rig like the Tact tailor AK rig, the eagle /SKD 762 rigs etc. With pistol,IFAK,knife on a belt, extra mags,ammo and junk in a small assualt pack. Least with the pack you can balance the load, ditch the weight as need be( at a waypoint or lay up) and go on.
But also have the means to have a rig thats ready for fast use( indoors etc).
I recall how much i bumped,snagged into stuff wearing a LBV with buttpack, and how much it weighed.,. i was happy to swicth to a molle vest( TT modular vest)..and even happier when i got to my chest rig. But all of them, once loaded up "patrol" style sucked. Sorry maybe im a big wimp, but lugging 30+ lbs of junk, for hours at a time is suited for a pack , not a suspender set up, it kills you slowly imho . lol That much weight on a chest rig is that bad as well.

im only running 6x 30rdn AK mags on the warlord. 2 4 inch izzys and a cat, prc125 pouch with gloves, bandana and radio. and a max pedition coccon in front to hold some patrol junk and ear pro.
Inside im running a few cliff bars, hydro drink mixes, compass, gps,pen and paper, chem lights, led, bug juice, face net, mylar blanket. and wrist compass and face paint.
the hydro carrier, has a survival straw, small platypus bladder empty, my 3 liter bladder filled with 2 liters, a 6x6 sil tarp, and bible and strobe on the back.

Lowdown3
05-12-2011, 10:34 AM
P- is their a tactical "ham sandwich" pouch? I heard somewhere that was critical, more so than actually carrying magazines in those pouches... Must be a "garage" thing? LOL

protus
05-12-2011, 12:43 PM
P- is their a tactical "ham sandwich" pouch? I heard somewhere that was critical, more so than actually carrying magazines in those pouches... Must be a "garage" thing? LOL

LMAO
dude i almost spit my soup out over the screen...:p

Diz
05-21-2011, 11:59 PM
You could say the US Palm rig is prolly the best domestic rig out there for the AK right now. I like the idea these guys had of making a truly dedicated AK rig. However, there are several features which I don't like. The base is too tall (IMHO) to accomadate the zipper pouch. An AK rig is tall enough (especially in comparision with an AR rig) without adding this extra height. The side panels need Molle webbing for any pouches you want to run, not just pistol-sized pouches. The shoulder strap design could use a little work. While I like the idea of tailored AK pouches, when you sew them down one way, you cannot reverse the mags if desired. And finally, after much testing, I am leaning heavily towards a full flap pouch design. Again, I applaud this company for making AK-specific gear, but it's just not what I would want to use.

Again, Hawkeye and I have designed these rigs for our own personal use, which in general means for armed civilians, and specifically for use in our terrain and situation. We felt you have to separate all the "speed-play" techniques being taught by the mainstream gun industry instructors out there, from what we felt we would actually need to fight with. As this applies to our chest rigs, we designed what we felt would be needed to carry our rifle support gear, both for short and long-range ops, in a woodland or swampland enviornment.

Hopefully we will have some first production run rigs to show you guys in the near future. We have taken a lot of your feedback into account. We have studied AK rigs literally from around the globe. WE have come up with something fairly unique, but it is also rugged and simple.

Hawkeye
06-21-2011, 11:59 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/MMMKII1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/MMMKI1.jpg

Patriotic Sheepdog
06-21-2011, 12:57 PM
Hawkeye,
Nice looking rigs! From the looks they seem to hold one thirty rounder in each pocket, correct? Are these the ones you and Diz created? How much and where can they be had? Any other pics?

Patriotic Sheepdog
06-21-2011, 01:01 PM
Hawkeye,
I only can see two pics in this thread. The third (plate carrier) didn't seem to load. I saw the plate carrier on the photobucket site. It's nice as well.

610Alpha
06-21-2011, 03:21 PM
Awesome, the top rig looks like I can fit about 4 sub sandwiches in those pouches and a couple ham sandwiches!!

All kidding aside looks good, so when do they go on sale at JRHEnterprises?

Hawkeye
06-21-2011, 05:42 PM
Hawkeye,
Nice looking rigs! From the looks they seem to hold one thirty rounder in each pocket, correct? Are these the ones you and Diz created? How much and where can they be had? Any other pics?

Yes, these are ours. These are our Minuteman rigs. We also have another design we're finalizing. Yeah, one 30 round mag in each pouch. Not for sale yet, as we are still working on getting them mass produced. Hopefully we'll have some production ones in hand by the end of July. Not 100% set on prices yet, but we are shooting for just < $100 MSRP.

Patriotic Sheepdog
06-21-2011, 10:41 PM
Cannot see the back, but is there a way to attach a hydration bladder or is it best to just wear a hydration pack with it?

Hawkeye
06-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Yes, there are provisions for attaching a hydro pouch that we'll be coming out with, as well as something like Tactical Tailors Removeable Operator pack, or, you can run a seperate hydro carrrier/pack. Thats one something we specifically had in mind, and one reason why we didnt put thicker padding on the shoulder straps. With the right geometry, its not needed, and it makes running a pack easier since you dont end up with 4 inches of padded shoulder straps stacked on top of each other.

Patriotic Sheepdog
06-22-2011, 07:54 PM
Seems like you guys have put a lot of thought into what the Civilian Sheepdog needs for the AK platform. I cannot wait until you have more pics. Look forward to hearing more about all three carriers.

qrprat77
06-22-2011, 11:08 PM
They look nice guys, In the top rig, are those packs maxpedition like? any insite as to the interior?

Patriotic Sheepdog
07-25-2011, 09:40 PM
Any news on your rigs? Any new pics?

Hawkeye
07-25-2011, 09:48 PM
Nothing new yet.... Its a slow process. Annoyingly slow....

Patriotic Sheepdog
07-26-2011, 07:54 AM
...Annoyingly slow....

As with most good things, I'll keep checking every now and then.

kihnspiracy
08-16-2011, 02:42 AM
For the AR, I run the SKD/Eagle rig. For an Ak, I think the US Palm rig is pretty hard to beat.

Hawkeye
08-16-2011, 05:27 PM
As with most good things, I'll keep checking every now and then.

Just got a very good email today, related to our last emails.... ;) Hopefully, we'll be firing up the T-minus clock very soon. :D

protus
08-16-2011, 06:08 PM
good to hear....

Patriotic Sheepdog
08-27-2011, 10:09 PM
Just got a very good email today, related to our last emails.... ;) Hopefully, we'll be firing up the T-minus clock very soon. :D
Well who do I need to call and get a fire started under someone, LOL. Can't wait, thanks for keeping me informed.

snare
10-02-2011, 11:15 AM
Wow !

After being led to this forum by the link in lowdown3's BCS AK Chest Rig youtube review, I was pleasantly surprised to find some valued and familiar people.

But, in particular, threads like this one are what led me to join yet another forum.

I value the thoughtful, rational and insightful thinking that has gone in to a thread (and subsequently products) like this.

The perspective of the 'prepared person' resonates strongly for me and the context and full acknowledgment that we are not, will not and should not be functioning like a military or law enforcement, is paramount.

Like how most all strength training is (unfortunately) based on bodybuilding and tries to apply this broadly to all other contexts. Most people don't know where to even get info that is not based on, or from, bodybuilding....basing our decisions/training/gear on info that is mostly applicable to a military or law enforcement will not meet our needs.

It is refreshing, to say the least. I am grateful.

Hawkeye knows this already, but I am very interested in the release of his (and Diz') products, especially the innovations found therein.