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View Full Version : Firearm Training... Pistol Defensive / Tactical?



Not_Yet_Prepped
11-28-2011, 03:42 PM
Ok so knowing that games can teach and I love games and true training is expensive I thought I might want to do some pistol competetions to get some added training Local ranges dont have much in the way of movement unless at a match... So the question is what type should I be looking for... From the little I have read it sounds like IDPA due to its focus NON modified equipment or everyday equipment.

IDPA
IPSC
USPSA
or
Other

What type of matches should I be looking to game if I want to use a stock pistol and learn some movement/reload/faster shooting? Again I know real training would be better but local training is very limited mostly to Permit and the very basics and the out of town stuff is really expensive (cost and time)...

But for 30-40 rounds and a couple of hours one evening I could hit up a weekly or bi-weekly local comp and get lots of hands on time and try to suckup any info around the water cooler while on downtime...

Matt In Oklahoma
11-28-2011, 03:59 PM
IDPA IMO is better than IPSC. It's what IPSC started as in the 80s when it was called combat shooting before it turned into a game and the europeans took it over. That being said however I shoot IPSC with my stock gear and ammo and i make them zorchiton ray gun magnetic holster fools work to beat me!
Do Not worry about scores/times or anything get in there and give it the best you got for that day and that moment. Don't round count and try and beat the game just shoot the senario and have fun while doing it! Hopefully you can find a good club that encourages shooters and not be so competitive that they refuse to even speak to you like some here do. I have found a good club that isnt hung up on ages and sterotypes and is willing to share info with you rather than just focusing on you being the competition.
I'm off to the range with my daughter to shoot her new SR9! Life is good

Lowdown3
11-29-2011, 10:35 AM
Matt said it all here-


Do Not worry about scores/times or anything get in there and give it the best you got for that day and that moment. Don't round count and try and beat the game just shoot the senario and have fun while doing it!

I used to advocate IDPA matches but honestly, unless one has already had some TRAINING, it can very easily instill some bad HABITS.

Look at the videos floating around online of "matches"- guys are sticking their rifles or pistol barrels way around corners, through "windows" of the little plywood cutouts, etc.

If you don't know any better and the "top dogs" of the matches are doing it- and winning- it's very easy to think that's the right thing to do.

I started showing people a decade ago how easy it was to take a weapon away from someone. All I can hope is some dunskie will stick their rifle around a corner like that if I'm ever facing him. :)

Honestly, if you were starting more or less from scratch, I'd definitely get some instruction first before hitting a few of these things. Their is low cost training out there.

About 7 or 8 years back, I gave an all day pistol class up your way at a NC campout Frugals forums hosted. It was $40. per person, $20. of which went to the person who set up the campout. Folks got everything you would have gotten in a Level I through III pistol class other places, for $20.00

Find a mentor, treat them well, buy them lunch/dinner after training, etc. Their is options out there for free or low cost training. Networking is the key to that.

snare
11-29-2011, 10:36 AM
I strongly recommend against using games in place of actual training.

Games are games. Habits and muscle memory from games are NOT what you want in a real fight.

And you have a local resource. Take advantage of them.

Patriot Prepper
11-29-2011, 04:43 PM
I taught tactical handgun, shotgun, and carbine as part of my marital arts courses. I believe IDPA is excellent if you augment it with other training. Everyone is at a different skill level. For some people simply handling a weapon and going to a gun range to shoot targets is a good step. As far as habits are concerned, yes you may pick up a few bad ones that will need correction. And it is always better to learn the right way. But keep in mind that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Learning from one instructor may not always be the solution. Not all instructors are created equal and many do suck. Habit? Well there are instances of highly trained individuals who when in a real defense situation, seem to forget all their training and well learned habits. In my MA classes, it takes thousands of repetitions to create a habit or to build muscle memory. To develop a world class kick can take as many as 500, 000 repetitions. There are certain skills that I have performed over 1,000,000 times. I believe shooting dozens of matches will probably not cause you to develop bad habits. But you do have to be aware of them and try to iron them out. I think you should jump in and shoot IDPA and also augment it by getting instruction.

Matt In Oklahoma
11-29-2011, 05:17 PM
I strongly recommend against using games in place of actual training.Games are games. Habits and muscle memory from games are NOT what you want in a real fight.And you have a local resource. Take advantage of them.
Learning the basics of movement, safety, reloading, engaging multiple targets, on the fly problem sloving, reward for proper accuracy, shooting moving targets, shooting targets that dont fall on one hit, engaging targets from the quick draw, learning to shoot while others are shooting around you, going into tunnel vision from pressure then learning how not to, spending quality time not just shooting static targets, fellowship, clearing jams, watching others in succes and failures and learning from that, learning to use cover, learning multiple gun shooting, learning to aim small miss small thru obstacles is not just a "Game". I can tell you first hand it is not the be all beat all but it sure helped me as a Soldier and LEO and I know several people involved in shootings that it helped as well because they survived and told us. I teach and have for years professionally as Military and LEO. I still recommend training whenever possible but action shooting will help you tremendously.

Not_Yet_Prepped
12-07-2011, 06:27 PM
I still recommend training whenever possible but action shooting will help you tremendously.

Matt,

I figured that your comment would be the sentiment for most of the forum, kind of suppressed by many of the responses really.

True Training is not readily available around here and can be very expensive (time and money wise). So if I go to these CHEAP matches and focus completing them as

Matt In Oklahoma
12-07-2011, 07:38 PM
Matt,I figured that your comment would be the sentiment for most of the forum, kind of suppressed by many of the responses really.
Yep, 'm not suppresed
So I went to the local shooting range and entered a "USPSA" style week night match... And sure enough everything felt 'odd' at best.

#1. Running with a Loaded Gun was "Uncomfortable" but by the 2nd time through the stage that feeling was almost gone. So we learned to safely move and became more comforatable with our weapon, awesome
#2. Trying to Change a Mag in a loaded pistol while moving was a new experience to say the leastBut real
#3. Having a guy follow close while doing those things was a little uncomfortable at first again it went away quickly you mean like your spouse/child might be as you try and get away from whatever?
#4. Focusing on proper shooting “Trigger Rest” and "Front Sight" was a lot harder because the concern about speed, but with self control I was able to keep good shots and quick follow up shoots… But I need to work on picking up that front sight faster the first shoots at each station/location was really slowaccuracy first, you cant miss fast enough to be a winner LOL
#5. The stage had a door that needed to be opened with the weak hand and then 4 targets that had to be engaged Strong Hand only (and a NO shoot making things harder)… That alone was something I would have never practiced. But running the stage twice I can tell you it is something I am going to have to practice because it can be odd. And we had a left handed shooter with us and he had a whole different set of problems with the door… So Door Knob location (left vs right) and swing direction (in vs out) all need to be worked on… (atleast by me)
Awesome you got outside the comfort zone!!!!!
I completed the stage with 15-A, 16-C, 1-D and zero misses and zero no hits. But my time was slow but I was focused on safety and good hits not on speed. AWESOME
Score was 37.615% and 2.48 hit factor, not sure what those mean. doesnt matter, thats the gamer portion and you are only competing with yourself to get better, right?

Next week I am going to try out a different "local" (about 30 mins down the road) match that runs a IDPA style. I hope to learn as much again. Excellent! Great to see the courage of trying diffetn things, more ned to do it and get away from the comfort zone!

What types of things should I be trying to "NOT" learn from these matches? I know that I should stay behind as much cover as possible vs the typical gamer trying to use as little as RO will let him get away with. Same with ports stay "in the house" type of thing.
You are on the right track. Dont stick the muzzle through anything, use cover even if it's not "required", accuracy over speed (hard for me as some here know LOL), dont round count just shoot it as it comes, when your done take a look around and make sure you got everything, ENJOY and HAVE FUN too many forget that and get too competitive and even forget to encourage others because "they are the competition" says alot of their character to me, dont listen to the vocal mall ninja couch commando "gurus" because they havent been there done that find the quiet source who lives it
oh and some no shoots are collaboraters and liars so they needed to be hit LOL enjoy!

Not_Yet_Prepped
12-08-2011, 08:50 AM
Matt,

Thanks... I am excited about doing this again. I learned alot the first time around and expect to learn alot more the next couple of times through. It is crazy how uncomfortable a few aspects were at first and then how quickly alot of that faded away too.

On the NO SHOTS I found that it was best for me just to focus on the target... Like when driving FOCUS on the where you want to go, not where you dont want to be.

45B
01-01-2012, 02:50 AM
I currently shoot IPSC as well as a few 3 gun matches and practice locally. I have noticed lots of people go with the gamer style of shooting and that is OK for them, but I prefer to use a more tactical approach like not sticking my gun through the doors and windows and not waiting until I am out of ammo to reload.

You can learn alot about your shooting and your gear if you do it right. You will also quickly learn what does not work.

Good luck and keep practicing.

You might even see if anyone close has a 22 tactical match set up. Use 22 pistols and rifles and run it like a 3 gun match, but much cheaper.

jimmycthemd
04-12-2012, 12:53 PM
OK, this is an excellent thread!! I've been asking myself many of the same questions. I've been to the local indoor range and have gotten 'ok' results but was wondering about some semi-real tactical shooting experiences. If/when I decide to do this (there's an IDPA range about 20 miles from me), the gamers will probably laugh there arses off but I don't care...ya gotta start somewhere :-) The only thing I really need is a decent holster (not a trick one, just a decent carry holster).

Matt In Oklahoma
04-12-2012, 04:16 PM
the gamers will probably laugh there arses off but I don't care...ya gotta start somewhere
If you find that to be the case you find somewhere else to shoot, we encourage one another and I will kick the snot outta anyone who doesnt within my earshot. Remember you are there to shoot against yourself and for yourself not them!

jimmycthemd
10-08-2012, 04:20 PM
Ok, I know this is an old thread, but I've got another question. For the outdoor matches, to they generally hold them 'rain or shine'? I'm hoping so as, either in day-to-day life or SHTF, the bad guys generally don't restrict their activities to 70 degrees and sunny. Obviously, YMMV with the local clubs...just a general question.

Matt In Oklahoma
10-08-2012, 07:36 PM
Ok, I know this is an old thread, but I've got another question. For the outdoor matches, to they generally hold them 'rain or shine'? I'm hoping so as, either in day-to-day life or SHTF, the bad guys generally don't restrict their activities to 70 degrees and sunny. Obviously, YMMV with the local clubs...just a general question.
This was actually discussed this month for new shooters because it was cold and some called to see. We shoot no matter what with the exception of lightening which we try and ride out and see if it gets better and if the roads are icy. They started shutting it down on the icy roads after they lost a member. We did shut down during the blizzard simply because we couldnt dig into the range even with a tractor.
We shoot, cold, rain or shine

jimmycthemd
10-08-2012, 09:14 PM
Sounds good. I'll contact the local chapter that shoots outdoors and check their policies. I've since found 2 indoor ranges that hold matches, both within 5 miles. One that shoots on Monday evenings and one that shoots on Tuesday evenings. Once my gear comes in and I get a class or two under my belt I'll start there.

Matt In Oklahoma
10-08-2012, 09:18 PM
Sounds good. I'll contact the local chapter that shoots outdoors and check their policies. I've since found 2 indoor ranges that hold matches, both within 5 miles. One that shoots on Monday evenings and one that shoots on Tuesday evenings. Once my gear comes in and I get a class or two under my belt I'll start there.

Awesome!!!!!