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max velocity
08-07-2012, 03:13 PM
I have a question. I come to shooting from a military and private security contractor perspective. I have been picking things up that I have seen in the media and wondering about them. Lately, I managed to see Doomsday Preppers for the first time and there was an example there: a female was being trained by a "contract sniper" (what the hell?!!!) and she was on the range with a handgun and walking towards the target as she fired. Others were doing similar in other shows.

What is this about?

Is this an IPSC thing? I have no experience of IPSC.

I don't get why you would do it. Return fire, seek cover, return fire. If I'm moving, I'm either being covered (fire and movement) or I'm running like hell to cover if I'm on my own. Walking slowly towards the target will just mess up my aim and make me vulnerable to any other shooters, flanking fire, mutually supporting positions or shooters.

There are limited time when I would fire on the move, such as in enclosed spaces such as buildings, maybe moving down a corridor, or perhaps when very close to the enemy, overrunning their position or similar.

Why are beginner shooters being taught to do this, when they should be taught the basics of marksmanship, and also the benefit of cover?

Very curious.

max velocity
08-07-2012, 03:19 PM
And another thing: To add: why do I see peope walking around with their weapons jammed into their eye socket? Is this an attempt at being super-alert and ready to fire? It will do the reverse, it will give you tunnel vision. You cannot patrol like that, unless you think the enemy is very imminent from a specific direction. Even when you expect contact, you will have your weapon at the ready and your eyes up and looking along the top of the weapon. At close range you will shoot instinctively using the "shotgun method" anyway so gluing your eye to the sight will not help. Keep your head up, alert, and the weapon at the ready, in order to best respond to threats from multiple directions.
Don't believe what you see from the current "CQB SME industry". Don't do this silly "TV SWAT" thing where they run into a building pointing their weapons intently with their eyes glued to the sights but they have no peripheral awareness,

Just sayin'....

Matt In Oklahoma
08-07-2012, 04:51 PM
I have a question. I come to shooting from a military and private security contractor perspective. I have been picking things up that I have seen in the media and wondering about them. Lately, I managed to see Doomsday Preppers for the first time and there was an example there: a female was being trained by a "contract sniper" everyone is something when they start training folks, they all have titles, very few just say because i've done it(what the hell?!!!) and she was on the range with a handgun and walking towards the target as she fired. Others were doing similar in other shows. It's partially to get them out of the box and shoot on the move. You dont start running you start walking and truthfully its more than many can do especially in a non sanitized area outside of the shoothouse. Its also where keeping both eyes open with eotechs etc shines

Is this an IPSC thing? I have no experience of IPSC. Several competitions do it to make it more difficult but no its not their thing

I don't get why you would do it. Return fire, seek cover, return fire. If I'm moving, I'm either being covered (fire and movement) or I'm running like hell to cover if I'm on my own. Walking slowly towards the target will just mess up my aim Not if its done correctly,short range, heel to toe groucho marx walk and make me vulnerable to any other shooters, flanking fire, mutually supporting positions or shooters. which is why no tactic is absolute and used everywhere. Different tactics for different things
There are limited time when I would fire on the move, such as in enclosed spaces such as buildings, maybe moving down a corridor, or perhaps when very close to the enemy, overrunning their position or similar. This is where it comes from. Its from SWAT or what acronym you wanna use. There are alot of senarios in which this happens during built up areas where the abilty to take cover or move side to side is restricted. Its also used when approaching active shooters in those restricted areas and is also used alot when you are the sheild man for suppresive fire moving backwards or direct when moving forwards. School hallway are absolute nightmares to go in on with this and this type of walk shooting is almost all there is

Why are beginner shooters being taught to do this, for the coolio factor to make you know how far behind you are and enlist in the next gurus schoolwhen they should be taught the basics of marksmanship, and also the benefit of cover? Yes
Dont take Nat Geo shows serious they are Bravo Sierra and we dont know what else she was taught and cover, theres no cover in these listed environments I gave outside of the sheild, shoot theres not even concealmentVery curious.



And another thing: To add: why do I see peope walking around with their weapons jammed into their eye socket? Is this an attempt at being super-alert and ready to fire? It will do the reverse, it will give you tunnel vision. You cannot patrol like that, unless you think the enemy is very imminent from a specific direction. Even when you expect contact, you will have your weapon at the ready and your eyes up and looking along the top of the weapon. At close range you will shoot instinctively using the "shotgun method" anyway so gluing your eye to the sight will not help. Keep your head up, alert, and the weapon at the ready, in order to best respond to threats from multiple directions.
Don't believe what you see from the current "CQB SME industry". Don't do this silly "TV SWAT" thing where they run into a building pointing their weapons intently with their eyes glued to the sights but they have no peripheral awareness, Just sayin'....

Agreed with the exception SWAT type things with short range tunnels, hallways with no doors/windows etc and also depends on your position in a non moving wedge. Often the point is stacked in and down on the rifle and the sides have, well, the sides especially when you are delivering and a known threat is coming from one acess point. SWAT aint the same as Soldiering in many cases.

The bottom line comes down to what type of training do you need/want. IMO What we need is a mix. Truth be known alot of folks are more likely to be in their house behind a locked bedroom door with a badguy breaking in, where they can be down on the sight tunneling in on the doorway rather than in patrol configuration when they are bugging out and walking and maybe moevment shooting with their kids in tow to the safe room at oh darkthirty is needed as much as sniper training or leapfrogging

max velocity
08-07-2012, 05:18 PM
Matt, agreed, interesting stuff. Truth be told, I do 'know" what they are doing, or attempting to do, but I don't like a lot of it and wanted to set the cat amongst the pigeons. I get what you are saying about SWAT, and there are circumstances where you will walk towards a target and indeed where you will have your eyes on the sights doing so. Imminent contact in a closed environment springs to mind
It appears there is a closely guarded tacticool "SWAT CQB" industry out there and it is not necessarily teaching civilians the right way to do things. It can be useful, say if you had to clear down a corridor in your house. Other than that, as you say thay may simply be figthing from barricades inside the house. Or they may have to get outside the house on a bug-out or whatever and then the SWAT techniques will do you no good, you have to be an infanteer out in the woods.
I am into a discussion about similar on a non-prepping enlightened tactical forum. We are porimarily discussing the problem of "SWAT" police type techniques permeating modern military MOUT battlefield tactics, where they are wholly unsuitable. Back to what is relevant here, I want civilians to learn appropriate techniques, not the current "tacticool" dogmas (love that word).
If you observe this "CQB" training, a lot of it is very specific and "stylized", in areas such as room entry and clearance drills. It often does not translate across well to the real world, where as you rush to try and get to your "dominating position" in the corner you trip over the coffee table and face plant, while the bad guy, who was not hiding in the corner, pops a cap in you.....these currently fashionable drills are by no means the only way, or the best way, but they are a good way for "SMEs" to earn a living teaching "black arts".
Over

Matt In Oklahoma
08-07-2012, 05:45 PM
ahhh Readin you 5x5 heheh took the bait
and kinda what i said in the long run, need a mix and ROE for everyone is diferent for each SME on top of everything else.
Hope some here are paying attention to what you are saying because i've been hurt after the door opened, post PAW it wont be hurt it will be KIA or worse. In almost every training senario we did on entries some or all got KIA, just the reality of it, they have the upper hand. In real life we usually fared better but again I have been hurt so a weekend of coolio wont cut it and maybe for the purposes of a "survivalist" shouldnt be done at all depending on the senario. I still think that it can be learned (see sig line) but doesnt mean ya gotta use it.
SWAT and MOUT aint the same as you are saying too. Coming from one who was doing both at the same time for different folks. Again ROE, enemy and mission are way different and if you add a third being a "survivalist" it would change the dynamics to something different from both of these as well.
Good topic, great thoughts

1Admin
08-08-2012, 09:36 AM
Hopefully my net connection will hold enough to get a reply out this go around.

Essentially their are two types of "movement" while shooting taught in the civilian world.

1. The first I call controlled movement. This is a slower movement, as much as possible feet stay in contact with the ground, as stable as a shooting platform as possible is kept. Keep in mind this is usually taught as a two hands on gun approach. A lot of new(er) shooters need to put a lot of things "together" early on. Things like moving your body, keeping on target, reloading, clearing jams, etc. all at the same time. Old hat for some of us but I can't tell you how much I've seen the "Chew bubblegum and walk" thing mess up new(er) shooters. Let's face it, MOST target shooting and what most consider "practice" or "training" usually involves standing 7 or 10 yards from the target, drawing your pistol, taking slow aimed shots, then patting yourself on the back and saying "wow I'm awesome!" But we all know how unrealistic that really is...... Controlled movement usually involves that forward "heel row to toe" walking, backwards it's the "heel raise drag toe" moonwalk looking deal, and laterally a side step kinda resembling the foot movement in a jumping jack exercise. Controlled movement has it's place in training, IMO but it's like 2nd grade stuff. You need to know it and it does come in handy for a stable shooting platform while moving SLOWLY.

2. The second method is more of a dynamic movement style. This could be something like the pekiti takeoff or the "Russian takeoff" ;) Essentially an "oh crap he's drawing a gun" move off the "X" while drawing and shooting. Everyone thinks this is a less accurate movement style. And EARLY ON in training, it usually is. However once enough training is done one handed (it's a HAND gun, not a HANDS gun after all) hits can be almost as accurate while your shooting one handed and moving at decent speeds. That goes back to that whole how many practice does it take to get something down thing we have argued here many times before. *For me* it was thousands of rounds, lots of point shooting practice as well.

This is the two styles of movement commonly taught in tacticool schools. IMO, both have their place. All too often now a days in a rush to get to the "cool stuff" some places are teaching the dynamic movement too soon and/or people are working those skills long before they are truly where they need to be with basics of drawstroke, shooting under stress and other basic important skills.

Not all shooting we may have to do is in the context of SHTF military tactics. Truth be told, we are more likely to have some idjit pull a gun or knife on us in the street than to have to rush and L ambush one day. Although we should train for both ;)